The COMPOSURE Podcast

The Origins of Boundaries

• Kate Purmal and Lee Epting • Season 1 • Episode 3

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COMPOSURE co-author and trauma therapist Joshua Isaac Smith joins host Drew Tweedy in a conversation about the origins of boundaries. Joshua tackles challenging questions about our boundaries: 

  • Where do our boundaries come from? 
  • What’s the cost of putting our own needs last? 
  • How do we evaluate our own boundaries, and how can we start to shift away from them when they’re no longer serving us?

Joshua sheds light on what we can do to strengthen our boundaries, as well as practices we can use in the moment when we're triggered by a boundary violation. A few highlights:

  • Feeling guilty about saying “no” to things is a key sign of a weak boundary
  • Asking questions before reacting can help avoid taking things personally
  • Having self-compassion is absolutely essential to strengthen our boundaries

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Drew Tweedy:

Welcome to The COMPOSURE Podcast. I'm Drew Tweedy, host of the show. Last week, COMPOSURE authors Kate Purmal and Joshua Isaac Smith discussed Badass Boundaries. What makes a boundary "badass"? And why are they so important to establish in our lives, particularly in our relationship to work? If you haven't checked it out, I highly recommend you give it a listen. Today, it's just me and Joshua. We're going to be taking a deep dive into the origins of boundaries, whether they're narrow or broad, weak or strong, new or old. Where do our boundaries come from? How do we know exactly where and what they are? And what can we do to change them when they're no longer serving us? Joshua has a fascinating background. And I realized I deprived all you listeners of that background last week. So we're going to give him a proper introduction today. Joshua began his career in the business world and found rapid success. He was an entrepreneur in the technology industry and rose to become CEO of a telecoms company in Southern California. Then, at age 32, he decided to retire. His life took a sharp turn from that point. And he has spent the decades since his quote, unquote, retirement, working as a trauma therapist and behavioral specialist focusing on neuroscience informed approaches to mindfulness, leadership, and resilience. He combines his expertise in business and psychology to coach executives and leadership teams around the world. So, needless to say, we're gonna learn a lot from him in our conversation today. Joshua, all the way from London, welcome to the show!

Joshua Isaac Smith:

Hey, Drew, good to be with you again.

Drew Tweedy:

So I'm wondering if we can start today by just getting a little peek inside your brain. At this point in your career, you could be studying and researching and spending your time doing all kinds of different things. But you seem to keep coming back to the subject of boundaries. My

question for you is:

What makes boundaries so fascinating to you?

Joshua Isaac Smith:

Well, the thing for me, boundaries has actually contributed so much to my life. I mean, I'm reflecting back on on the subject all the time. And I tell a lot of different stories in my trainings. So the thing for me in both, say, therapy and coaching, is boundaries are critical to just flourishing and being resilient as a human being. And one of the examples of that, for me, I think I learned boundaries really, as a young person. Just coming into the workplace where I worked with my family's computer company. So, because my father and I have the same name, it was a situation where I had to really be clear about who I am, right, versus my father. And then really have my own sense of identity within the company, and really push myself. I had to be really confident because I was representing the family, and the call to work in my father's company became more and more important. So I had to really up my game a lot. And it's the boundaries, that ability to differentiate myself from others to look at my strengths. What am I really, really good at? What are the things that I really enjoy doing? What gives me the energy? How do I convert all of that into a self-promoting strategy as much as, you know, making sure that my team did well, so it's really the boundaries that helped me understand that the way to really do that. Those lessons were forged in the workplace. So when I left it, and then started training, in yoga, and then therapy, and then particularly trauma therapy, it was just so natural for me to use boundaries with clients in ways that other people hadn't considered, and other therapists or therapy methods hadn't employed. And that's where the whole concept of the body comes in. And that's when I really fell in love with boundaries, being able to physicalize those boundaries. Because most boundaries are thought out, or maybe expressed, but they're not physicalized. They're sort of invisible, psychological aspects. So bringing them into life I'm moving my hands now as we speak putting those into into action really is what made the difference for me. And that's why I love the work so much.

Drew Tweedy:

And I think that's what makes your work so interesting is the ability to physicalize them [boundaries], which we talked a little bit about last week. But what we're really going to focus on today is in the origins of boundaries themselves. I'm curious, where in your research have you found that, weak or strong, new or old... Where do these boundaries come from for people?

Joshua Isaac Smith:

Essentially, it's our parents. We learn boundaries from our parents, and not just from their actions and behavior. But in terms of the impact of their actions and behavior on us. And there's a lot of brain activity that's happening in the For example, there's a point when we're first born as infants. So an infant is, from birth to say, 12 months. The infant is in an experience where they're really focused on a infant-to-toddler's brain, where the toddler is just drawn to so collective mindset. They're weak, right, because they can't exist, they can't feed themselves, they can't take care of themselves. So this is just an evolutionary advantage that is just totally focused on "we" And then as the infant gets o der and enters into the tod ler aspect, the whole concept f a toddler is that the tod ler becomes mobile, and it beg ns to explore the world, it be omes curious. much. And then there's a point where the parents' role changes, right? First is this nurture, this nurturer, this smiling, laughing, having fun and safe... but then all of a sudden, the parent turns into the enforcer, because now the child is wandering everywhere, and the parent has to start to watch the child. So now the parent is denying the child's ability to do things that it might really want to do. So there's a battle of wills. And that's when the infant becomes a toddler, it goes into a "me" focus, right, so a child is born in "we" and then ends up in "me." And that's where the battle of wills happening, the terrible twos and threes, for example, this is exactly where that identity of a child develops, and where the child is trying to differentiate itself from mother or father because it's trying to strike its own identity. It's wanting to grow and it's wanting to explore, so those boundaries are necessary. The challenge becomes, when parents can punish too harshly, for example, or can deny that child the ability to explore itself in its own development. And that's where boundaries can become very, very weak. For example, the infant does doesn't feel safe, that it can actually be an "I." So it stays in this function of constantly being of service to the family, neglecting its own developmental goals and priorities in favor of what does the family, or what do my parents need? Very much I'm talking about imposters, where when imposters struggle with something called parentification, where, let's say a parent dies, or something tragic happens. And now all of a sudden, the child has to forsake its own sort of playtime for the for the good of the family, to cook for the younger siblings, or to fill in where mom can't to help out. And this is very much where boundaries become very weak, there is no ability to really differentiate myself from my family, because I need to fill in, I have a role now. And that becomes hardwired, more or less... it's really hard to change. So, as an adult, boundary work becomes critical, the ability to push back. The ability to say, "No." the ability to put my needs first. All these can be alien to so many people. It's really incredible, especially if there's trauma involved, then it's a real struggle to have strong boundaries.

Drew Tweedy:

Yeah, I can, I can totally see that as to how that pattern would show up as a child if your experience with your family becomes one of need, rather than one of want. If you become a necessity to your family, it's really hard to break that pattern, right? Where if your parents need you to provide in any kind of way, whether it's taking care of a sibling, taking care of a parent, providing money to the family, or whatever it might be, at a certain point it becomes so enmeshed with the dynamics in your family that, I know with a lot of people, it becomes a lifelong habit. And so it originates in childhood, but it continues into adulthood. And I've seen it happen over and over again, with people I know, where that pattern doesn't only exist in the family, because it's familiar. It's what you know, and so you start to replicate that pattern over and over again and all kinds of other areas of your life. And, as a therapist, you have worked with many different clients. So I'm really curious if you have an example or two that really stick out of how these patterns of weak boundaries show up in our lives, whether it be work or personal, from that point where they originate in childhood, but they really start to show up in other areas of our lives outside of our family?

Joshua Isaac Smith:

Yeah, and that's perfect setup, because I have an example of one client in particular, who had a really severe trauma history that takes her back to domestic violence when she was a child. But as a result of just a lot of development, you know, growing up as a teenager, she's very intelligent. She did very, very well in school, but she didn't get the support, she really sort of needed to flourish. And so as a result, when I met her she was wanting to actually put herself forward more for promotion, for asking for really what she wanted. And she really struggled even, in some cases, for taking time off, she actually felt guilty about that. And particularly if she needed support, because she would tend to take on too much. She was afraid too ask for support. So she developed physical symptoms she was already anxious. And it didn't help with her trauma history. So one of the first things that we worked with was helping her set boundaries and helping her to be able to identify her own sense of self-worth, her own sense that she's deserving, that she's worthy, that she can say no, that she can push back. And we worked with the stuff from her past, and it was amazing how quickly, by working through those boundary violations, her life changed. Even how she appeared, like, when she would come into my office, she just kept looking different. I mean, literally healthier, she was working out more, because she was able to push back. She was able to actually identify the things that were just too close to her that she wanted to sort of push back on and give herself that space and that permission to do the things that she wanted to do. As opposed to the things that she had to do, or felt obliged to do, right? So she started to speak up more in meetings, she started to manage up more with her manager. And she was promoted, she was given raises, and she became more physically fit. She had struggled with eating issues, and those even diminished, all because she strengthened her boundaries. Then there's another case. He was a senior executive when I met him, but was passed over for a C-Suite role. And he didn't understand why. And he took it really personally, to the point where he was losing credibility with many of the C-Suite members. So there, working with him, was really about acceptance, in particular self-acceptance, and helping him identify that these things happen, right? These things happen. So he worked with a senior manager who was a C-Suite member, and interviewed him to find out the things that he needed to help grow his career, versus making it so personal that he just wanted to leave. And, eventually, he did leave that company, but he went on to become a C-Suite member in a smaller company. So he didn't meet his career goals in that sense, but when I met him, he was just he was just really irritated, actually. So he was able to really accept the situation and then move on from there. And it was a win-win for everybody concerned. So strong boundaries help both of those cases.

Drew Tweedy:

I want to dive into what we can do to make ourselves healthier at respecting our boundaries a little bit more, but first, I want to hold on something that happens before that. The real damage of weak boundaries seems to come from the ways we react imperfectly to instances where our boundaries are violated. And the first step to being able to strengthen our boundaries, eventually, is to recognize where our boundaries are in the first place. Getting to that level of awareness of, okay, I have this situation where there is a boundary in place, but what is it? And where is it? And, in order to do that, is it important to realize that we have a certain pattern of behavior as it relates to our weak boundaries?

Joshua Isaac Smith:

Absolutely, absolutely. That's a great question. Self-awareness and self-reflection are important in all of this. It's a really hard task, but really being as honest with ourselves as we possibly can. How do we feel about this situation? Does this feel right to us? This is where really accessing the somatic aspect that we talked about last episode about being able to take a step away from the situation, take a breath, and then start to reflect, is this really fitting what it is I want? Right, because boundary violations happen, because either someone overpowered us, someone ignored us, someone just disregarded us altogether, or we didn't speak up. And we didn't say the things maybe that we really wanted to say, or we really needed to say. And this is often the case where people are afraid to speak up. So in that violation, where someone experienced, oh, I had a weak boundary, the first thing to do is just, again, take a step back, breathe, and then focus on what it is that I really want to happen. Giving ourselves permission to just begin to speak up more, because that's what boundaries really allow.

Drew Tweedy:

For our listeners who are maybe hearing this and trying to identify where they might have weak boundaries themselves, before we dive into different practices to strengthen our boundaries, can you give me a few examples of patterns of behavior that are exhibited when we have these really weak boundaries? What are some reactions that are really common that end up being unproductive and imperfect when we have weak boundaries, and we're triggered?

Joshua Isaac Smith:

So here's one that I talk about quite often. It's sourced by the fear of pushing back or the fear of saying "no." So, again, boundaries help us be able to say "no" to the things we don't want, so that we can say "yes" to the things we do want. So most of us conflate these entirely, we say "yes" to the things that we really don't want to do. And then we can often easily say "no" to things sometimes that we really want to do. This literally comes from having a weak boundaries. And it means that we're taking on too much. For example, let's say your your best friend is moving one weekend. And you're really happy for this friend to move, and so forth. Then all of a sudden the plans fall through, the movers suddenly can't show up, or something else happens. So your best friend calls you. And this happens to be on a weekend where you didn't have anything specific planned, but it was your "me" weekend it was your weekend to sort of chill out, get some downtime. You know, go do something like a walk in the mountains or a day at the spa or something like that. And that was really your weekend to do that. So the question is, what do you do? Do you go against what it is you really want to do? And go help your friend out? Realizing that if you do that you might be a little resentful. You might not do your best in helping your friend move. You might be late or you might even slightly just, you know, show up for an hour

then leave? Or do you just say:

"Honestly, I'd love to do it. I just can't do it this weekend. I'd really love to help. But I really need to take care of myself this weekend because I've been taking work home and I've been really driving hard. Is there a way that you can come up with another solution other than me? Or can I make a phone call or two on your behalf?" A lot of people struggle with that. That simple question. Because they want to just go help their friend out. Right, there's this natural tendency to want to just bypass my own needs. But this is exactly the kind of thing that weak boundaries create, and it exhausts us. So we take on too much that's another one. And then we become afraid to speak up, and to say what it is that we really want or need. And we also take things really personally where we're the person who might ask for help, and someone says, "no." They assert their boundary. And we feel personally like, well, you should help me out. Like, why won't you do it? Right? I did it for you once, so you should do it for me. So there's this real dishonesty that occurs. And, in that, it's a struggle for authenticity, you know, being yourself, and really saying things. And that curtails our growth, that completely stunts our psychological growth, and most likely our career.

Drew Tweedy:

Yeah, I know I can really relate to that feeling of having the first thing to go be my own needs. You know, when you're asked to take care of somebody else or take care of yourself, the easier solution is to ignore your own needs, and do what your first instinct tells you and to go take care of others.

Joshua Isaac Smith:

So it's a challenge, isn't it? It really is. Well, again, a lot of it is just awareness, just being aware. Like, for example, if you're in that scenario, you know, where you notice yourself, wanting to put your needs or wants aside, just notice that you're doing that, right? Notice that and then notice, oh, that's a pattern! Oh, that's what I do. But then notice, well, what's the cost of that? Is that something I really want to do? Or do I want to change that? So it begins there. And then you know, it's just a lot of practice, and habits to actually create stronger boundaries.

Drew Tweedy:

Yeah, I want to talk about that a little bit more now. Let's dive into the meat and potatoes here. Even with all of the work that you can do and you can learn in terms of checking in with yourself, recognizing that you have these patterns, doing that sort of negotiation with yourself anytime you start to feel that your boundary might be violated. It's not as though any of us can wave a magic wand and never be triggered again, never have our boundaries violated again, right? So no matter those healthy habits that we develop, we're gonna have these moments where our boundaries are violated, and we do get triggered. So when that happens, what can we do in that moment, or right after to be able to better deal with the situation?

Joshua Isaac Smith:

Well, here's step one, okay. And this is major gold. Anybody who really struggles with boundaries, please write these down. Because these are like gold. I've run through these in courses, and it's really helped a lot of people. So the first thing is to say no, without feeling guilty afterwards, it's the guilt that stops us from actually asserting strong boundaries, because it takes us back to our childhood, takes us to our family home, where we're afraid that if we say no, if we don't do what somebody asks, then there are going to be severe consequences. And then I'm going to feel guilty afterwards, that I actually did this. The thing about that is, with human behavior, everyone is responsible for their own behavior. And eventually, you can't control the behavior and actions of others, you can only control your own behavior or actions. And so this is where really, the rubber meets the road, if you can say no, and not feel guilty afterwards, right? The next level, and this is a second hardest thing to do, is to not take things personally. Oh, that is the hardest thing. That is the hardest thing to do, right? Because we all take things personally, right? And the question is, can we actually just begin to distinguish that, okay, things happen. It didn't go my way this time, or something was said. And I can actually set that boundary. Say,"so let me make sure I understand what you're saying..." That would be an example of articulating or setting up when you have a boundary. And you're saying,"Can you clarify what you mean? Because I want to make sure I understand what you're saying." That's a simple way to create a boundary without saying no. It's a way to just make sure you understand what the person is saying before you react. And in that timeframe, what you're doing is you're actually calming down, and you're actually breathing. And it's like taking that step back when you ask that question. So rather than just react, maybe consider asking questions. That's it. That's a really strong example, of someone who has boundaries. The next big level and the big practice, and I do it in with anyone I work with, is to boost self-compassion. And essentially, that means the ability to be kinder to myself. In some cases, rather than feel guilty, and saying, no, just if the person was upset, because I said, "No," the first thing to do is just to forgive myself and say, "Well, I forgive myself, if I feel like I did something wrong. I'm not going to blame myself here, because I'm just attempting to say what it is that I need and put that forward or whatever the communication is." But the ability to be self-compassionate is absolutely critical to strengthen your boundaries. Without a doubt.

Drew Tweedy:

I think that's a great place to leave off, Joshua. So thank you for imparting all of that wisdom on our listeners, giving everybody the tools to be able to understand where boundaries come from, whether they're weak or strong, new or old. The ability to recognize and have awareness of where our boundaries are at at any given time, when they might be violated, when they might be strong, and things that we can do in the moment to be able to be less reactive, more composed, more self-confident more sure of ourselves when ou boundaries are violated. And, s always, if you would like mo e information on Bada s Boundaries, or any of the wo k that goes into composure, vis t composurethebook.com. So thank you again, Joshua, for coming on the show.

Joshua Isaac Smith:

Thank you. It's a pleasure.