The COMPOSURE Podcast

Brain Hack: Parenting under Pressure with Presence and Composure

• Kate Purmal and Lee Epting • Season 1 • Episode 6

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What does parenting with composure look like when you have a 9-second commute from your office to your kids?

This is the question at the heart of this episode. Kate Purmal is joined by special guest Laurie McGinley in the latest installment of our “brain hack” series. Kate takes Laurie through a live coaching session, helping her find balance between two versions of herself: 

  1. Tea Kettle Laurie, who is stressed and anxious (but you better bet she gets the kids to school on time)
  2. Wood Turning Laurie, who is calm and joyous (but maybe sometimes needs a little help with logistics)

Kate and Laurie go in some unexpected directions on this journey, somehow tying together winter bundling, morning wood turning, and airplane taxiing — it's a ride you won't want to miss.

This episodes provides clarity on:

  • How to maintain high-quality parenting during moments of stress and misalignment
  • Why all parenting conflict is ultimately about control
  • How to turn stressful moments into joyous ones

Read A Simple “Brain Hack" to Loosen the Grip of your Perfectionism — The COMPOSURE Blog ➞

Drew Tweedy:

Welcome back to the COMPOSURE Podcast! Today were joined by Laurie McGinley, who is our next participant in the Brain Hack series. As a quick reminder, well be joined by special guests over the coming weeks who will go through coaching sessions with COMPOSURE author Kate Purmal and have their brain hacked. What that really means is Kate will help identify an area of our guests lives where theyre struggling or theyd just like to be more resourceful then she helps radically shift their mindset around that issue. The result is a huge boost in self-confidence in the ways our brain hack guests are able to handle their toughest obstacles. Before we dive in, though, a bit of an intro for our incredible guest today, Laurie! Lauries background is a fascinating one. Shes a maker and a mover, passionate about the digital, physical, and process-oriented design of the systems that make our world move. She is a Registered Architect who has been an Owner's Representative managing construction and worked in heavy manufacturing. Shes served in the Peace Corps, worked in web design and documentary photography, and earned two Masters Degrees in Architecture. She practices woodturning as a meditation. Last year, Laurie took the leap and left her salaried job to focus her energy on the company she founded, Via Lucent, which catalyzes climate inventions into companies so we can all keep thriving on Earth. She changes how climateTech founders talk about their work so that it is in the language of success of their audience and she provides leadership coaching so that they can have greater impacts. Laurie is a leading thinker with an incredibly warm heart and were so lucky to have you on the show. So, Laurie, thanks so much for joining us today, and welcome to the COMPOSURE Podcast!

Laurie McGinley:

Drew, thank you for that introduction. It was kind of incredible to hear all in one crush. Thanks for reading it that way.

Drew Tweedy:

Glad we could all do that!

Kate Purmal:

And Laurie is all that! Laurie and I have known each other for about about a year now. And I've had really the privilege and honor to work with her, and to watch her grow and blossom and expand in the way she's impacting the world. And she is really important at this moment in time. And we're just honored to have her and her energy in the world doing what it needs to do. So thank you, Laurie, for that. It's very generous and important work.

Laurie McGinley:

Thank you, Kate. And I'm really excited about this. Because literally every time I've talked to you, I've walked away a changed person. So I am thrilled at whatever is coming. And I'm going to leave it in your hands.

Kate Purmal:

All right, great. Thank you. Okay, so what we talked about before the podcast[recording], we talked a little bit about what you wanted to work on or shift. And I believe it has to do with taking this way of being and your presence that you have when you're in flow, whether that's in your workshop, working with wood, or doing the work that you do, and being really present with the founders of these amazing technology companies you're working with. There's this element of flow and ease and serendipity and grace, that you would like to also have in another part of your life. Tell us a little more about that.

Laurie McGinley:

Yeah, so I work from home, I am literally about nine linear feet from my family right now, who you're probably going to hear buffaloing around in the room above me because it's winter break, and the kids are home. And I have this kind of daily pattern on weekdays where I come to this office, and I'm really present. And I'm really connected. And I'm really in the moment. And I do very powerful work with our clients. I do this sometimes after the kids go to bed, go to my woodshop right over there. And I'm really present and I'm really grounded with woodworking. But I have this ping pong every day of when it's time to parent and be a wife and be super present in my family, that I'm really struggling to bring that composure, frankly, to family time. And I have two kids. They're five and eight. They're on winter break right now. I believe we're about a week into a three week break. I'm in the thick of it right now. I'm up to my neck in parenting. And I had a little break in the shop this morning. So I'm actually in this moment very calm and centered. But as soon as we are done talking, I'm going to do my five second commute upstairs and be right back into parenting for lunchtime.

Kate Purmal:

I'm sure many people listening to this podcast can relate to that dynamic that you're experiencing. In fact, we hear this over and over again. We really recognize how challenging this parent-at-home working dynamic is. I didn't have to go through that my kids are in their 20s right now. But I do remember that whenever I was at home trying to be present with my work and having my children around, it was pretty miserable. For all of us, it was very, very stressful, one of the most stressful things for me. So anyway, I can certainly relate and I know many of our listeners can relate as well. So tell me, what we really want to do is capture the essence of how you are when you're fully present in your work downstairs there and in your workshop. So tell me about that. And I want you to tell me about it, not just in terms of the feelings that you have, but also how your body feels, and where your gaze goes. All the information you can give us about that particular way of being because we want to take that and figure out how to apply it over here.

Laurie McGinley:

Yeah, that's a really beautiful way to ask that question. I have only met one of our clients in person. And that happened about three weeks ago. So literally all of my other exchanges have been in this exact format. Video conversation, I'm looking at a computer screen. Right now, I'm in the chair that I sit in when I do this, or I'm at the desk that I'm standing at when I do this. And what I do to prepare for a coaching session or a communication session with our clients is, I always have on my calendar five minutes before any call opens to center and ground. Because I am very aware that the most valuable thing I can bring to our clients is being rested, being centered, being grounded, and being really good at listening for what is there and for what isn't quite there yet, so that we can have breakthroughs. And I'm generally talking to clients for about an hour at a time. Sometimes I will have up to six of these in one day. But generally it's somewhere between one and six times a day I spend an hour in a hyper focused, very relaxed, very grounded place in this video chat format. And it's amazing, it feels very natural, it feels very easy. I'm never stressed out about what I'm going to talk about, or what I might hear when I'm talking to them. Any obstacle that we come across, it's just a matter of figuring out how to move it out of the way so that we can move

Kate Purmal:

So, you know, how do these two things relate? forward. Often with kids, there's conflict or tension involved in the dialogue? Does that come up with them for you, as well?

Laurie McGinley:

Well, interestingly you ask that, because all of my clients are adults. So there's a major distinction, right. And I'm talking to one to five of them at a time, right? In contrast, my kids are little, and they will spend time playing together when I'm not engaged at all, or I'll spend one on one time with them and I'll spend two on one time with them. Sometimes there's conflict, you know, in terms of the conflict that happens at work with Via Lucent, we're generally as adults taking turns and listening to each other and holding pauses. A lot of what I do in my role is to hold some space when things get heated, so that we can address it. And in contrast, what I'm becoming aware of now is a lot of times when the flare ups happened with the kids, it's just so intense, you know, they have intense, immediate needs that are usually about, like, cheese, or putting a snow suit on. Or I can't find my socks.

Kate Purmal:

Which are urgent issues!

Unknown:

They're urgent! And, sometimes? Sometimes the cheese situation, like, provokes a scream.

Kate Purmal:

Yeah. Right. So it's interesting, because I'm thinking that oftentimes, I don't know if this is true for you. But when I'm working with clients, things that are big deals for clients don't seem like such a big deal to me. But as a consultant, I treat it as a big deal, because it's a big deal for our clients. And I think I'm thinking about what you're saying. And I'm thinking about my own time as a parent. And I think it's easy for us to go "Oh, come on, it's just socks right?" When you put yourself in the place of a five or eight year old brain to a big deal.

Laurie McGinley:

Oh my gosh, Kate, something just clicked in my brain the way you said that. I absolutely as a consultant hold all issues to be as real as they need to be with clients because that's part of holding them and making an informed choice about how to move forward. You know, in about an hour I will be done with lunch with the kids, and it snowed last night, so there's fresh snow so probably going sledding. So the socks thing is going to happen. I wonder what would happen when the screaming about the sock starts is if I treated it like it was the biggest issue of the moment.

Kate Purmal:

Right, right. Hold that thought. Yeah, I also wanted to say that, you know, part of what we're talking about is power, struggle, resistance, right? Power, who's in control, is a lot of what we're talking about with parenting. Which isn't the way that you operate with clients? Probably very collaborative. And look, you are the parents. So there's an element of that, but it reminds me of this story I heard about this couple whose mother came to live with them. And they're both stand up comedians, they do improv. And the mother came to live with them, and the mother has dementia. And for about six months, they were, you know, going through these periods of being incredibly frustrated when mom would talk about the penguins in the backyard or something where they try to talk her out of it, and they resist it. And it didn't work. And it was this frustrating thing. And then one day, the husband woke up and said, "Wait a minute, we're improv comics. Let's go with it. Let's treat this like improv." So then then he described this moment where he's standing in the kitchen next to his mother in law, and they're looking out in the backyard, and it's the fall. And she says, Oh, there are the penguins. And he said, Wow, are they early this year? I think they came last year, a little bit later, didn't they? And, and so this whole thing of him just going with it, and not resisting, transformed their entire conversation and actually, their relationship. And often what he found is the minute that he would go with this, and he'd carry it to an extreme. So off he would go, and if she went there, he woould take it one step further, just like you do an improv and proper roles. It would get to the point of absurdity that they would both recognize, and then she'd start laughing, and it would be done.

Laurie McGinley:

And she the outcome for her was humor, and delight and laughter and storytelling instead of "Oh, you guys are really frustrated with me."

Kate Purmal:

Yeah, you're not believing me. You're not hearing me. You're not listening to me. Which I'm sure is a lot of the dynamic, right? Oh, and one more thing. In your workshop, when you're doing wood? Tell me a little about that. Because I'm pretty sure there's something that's really relevant there, to this dynamic. So help me understand how you approach woodworking with large power tools and saws that can be dangerous and volatile. And how does that relate with the analogy with your kids?

Laurie McGinley:

So I happened to have three hours in the shop this morning. And I just came in. And I used two dangerous

tools this morning:

I have a large 17-inch bandsaw and I have a lathe that will rip my arm off if I'm not paying attention. So every time I step up to the bandsaw, I remind myself that this is the identical tool that butchers use to butcher hogs. And when I do that, nothing else in the universe is present. There is a bubble between my body and in the back of the table, the cutting surface. And I'm paying attention to literally every muscle movement that I'm doing, because one of the things that can happen with the bandsaw is that you're pushing at a uniform speed and something in the wood that you can't see and have no idea is there will get really soft, and then it'll move forward really fast. And if your thumb is in the way you lose your thumb, right? So I'm very intentional about exactly what is happening in that moment. And with the lathe, there's so many things that could go wrong with the lathe. I put a log on a motor and I spin it at about 1,000 rpm, and then I touch it with sharp tools. If my sleeve gets caught in the log, my arm will get pulled into the lathe. If if there's a piece that's loose, and it cuts me, I mean, I'm wearing a face shield and a respirator while I'm doing this. And I do this as a meditation because it's very fast. It requires a lot of relaxation and focus to be on the lathe. You know I'm holding the tool with one arm like this. There's a huge difference between this and this.

Kate Purmal:

And you're showing us being tense, right?

Laurie McGinley:

So I can have a relaxed posture, or I could have my shoulders up to my ears and be like all of the muscles in my upper body go tight. Yeah, I'm wondering if you can imagine which one produces the beautiful finished cut? It's the relaxed one. Again, with the lathe, we take a deep breath, intentionally relax all of my muscles, and I approach the spinning log. And I confidently bring the tool through it. And in that moment, just like with the bandsaw, there's a bubble between my body and the back of the log, and the rest of the universe melts away. And it's incredibly relaxing, and calming, and centering and grounding.

Kate Purmal:

Well, that's beautiful. I want to see it in action, you're gonna have to take a video!

Laurie McGinley:

I take lots of videos, I'll send you some of them, or you just come to Minnesota and come turn with me. I actually really want other people to come and do this with me, because it's a state of thought and existence that I have a hard time producing anywhere else. Yeah.

Kate Purmal:

So there's something else, there's something you said there, which is that you can't see when you're going to hit something soft. Sounds a lot like your kids, right? There's something else you've told me in the past, which is about when you start out with a chunk of wood.

Laurie McGinley:

So I have a log pile behind the shop and a chainsaw and I drive around, and I pick up logs, and the kids roll their eyes at me and I do this anyway. And I will make some choices about which cylinder of wood ends up on the lathe. But at the point that a cylinder of wood is on the lathe, it's time to step up, it's time to make the first cut. In the past, when I have envisioned a form inside of that cylinder and remember that I'm an architect, I have years of training of envisioning something that doesn't exist, and making it manifest, right but when I do this on the lathe, almost every single time, something goes wrong. And I don't know that I've ever gotten the preconceived shape out of the blank, ever. I don't think I've ever successfully done that. But when I approach the cylinder, and I understand that wood is going to behave the way wood is going to behave, and I am only whoever I am today. I might be really relaxed, I might be really tense. And the outcome really is just creating joy as the shavings come off. And I'm able to get nice relaxed cuts off of there, then things that are delightful come off, only when I can be really in the moment, not even thinking five minutes ahead of time when I will see that shape. But just letting it be what it is.

Kate Purmal:

And you're not in control of the shape. Not at all. Yeah, you're not in control of what the essence is.

Laurie McGinley:

The wood has some agency!

Kate Purmal:

Again, children. Right. Right. Because all parenting is about all parenting conflict is about control. Ultimately, it is yeah. Okay. All right. Thank you for that. So we've got this, Laurie that does that. And we need to give her a quick name so I can refer to her. Which Laurie is that?

Laurie McGinley:

The wood turning Laurie?

Kate Purmal:

We could just do wood turning Laurie?

Laurie McGinley:

Good call. Yeah, that sounds great.

Kate Purmal:

So wood turning Laurie is that one, I think we all got an idea of that. And there's a lot of letting go and allowing things to do what they do and not being in control. But being responsive to what's happening. There's a lot of improv there, right? There's a lot of calm and presence and deep breaths.

Drew Tweedy:

And courage, I might add.

Laurie McGinley:

True. That's true.

Kate Purmal:

So now this other Laurie, I would love to pick a moment in time that's happened in the past with your kid or kids, in which your way of being was not ideal that you would like to have shown up differently, so that we get to work with that.

Laurie McGinley:

Well, it's winter in Minnesota. So what's on my mind is bundling. You have to put a lot of clothes on to go outside in Minnesota and we are an outside family. So we have a huge array of warm outside clothes. And we go outside every day. We have two kids, a five and an eight year old, the eight year old for the most part, I say"hey buddy, it's time to bundle" and it generally happens. She's bigger, right? Sometimes there's becoming some funny choices about not wanting to wear snow pants, and we have some lesser quality parenting moments about that where I say "I'm the Mommy, put your snow pants on." But it's the five year old. You know there's a lot of things when you get all of those clothes on that a five year old's body is still trying to figure out how to do, like, boots. On the right feet, getting the zipper on the snowsuit, finding a hat, getting mittens on is still a little bit challenging. But for the most part, she can do it all right. But it usually, you know, if I said you have two hours to get bundled, I'd like you to be bundled in two hours. It could take that whole time! And as an adult who has been bundling in this climate for over 40 years, you just get your stuff on and you leave, right? And so I have this, you know, I have a lot more practice of bundling than a five year old does. I'm a lot more focused, and I see that the fun part is outside on the sledding hill, not spending 35 minutes, frankly, having a power struggle about how to be warm and successful outside for two hours.

Kate Purmal:

So this is so interesting. I have a husband who we joke about him having a staging area. Everywhere he goes, everything he does, he lays everything out. He gets he takes his time, he reorders, reshuffles, he makes sure. And he's a squirrel too. In other words, he brings snacks! You know, I mean, we're talking about this whole process that unfolds... Me, I'm like time to go, out the door. And so I have a little bit of this going on myself. This is very interesting. I

Laurie McGinley:

Does your husband always have a pen in his pocket? Is he like a prepared person?

Kate Purmal:

Oh, yeah, absolutely. He's got a little bit of everything. And he also has ADHD. So, you know, organization is difficult for him. It just is, but it's really important as part of his process of making sure that he can get everything in order... Anyway, you said, if she had two hours, perhaps she could get bundled. But do you have two hours?

Laurie McGinley:

No. And especially on a school morning,

Kate Purmal:

Okay. So is that really a big source of the conflict, is the time?

Laurie McGinley:

Yes, a big source of the conflict is. And A 40-minute process to get out the door doesn't is not in you have to remember that on school mornings, when I'm in charge of bundling, I know that once she's at school, I get to come to work and do this amazing thing that I love doing. So there's this incredible carrot at the end of this task for me. And she loves school. It's not about not wanting to go to school. But it's this idea that I mean, some days, Kate, there was a day recently when we're in the process of brushing teeth, getting dressed, bundling, getting out the door really did take 40 minutes. And that was probably my lowest quality parenting of the last six months. It was bad. alignment with what I would like to do with my life?

Kate Purmal:

Of course not. I think we can all relate to that. Okay, so the question that I have is, how do we want to refer to that Laurie, that version that becomes impatient.

Laurie McGinley:

Well, Laurie is like a teakettle that's whistling.

Kate Purmal:

Teakettle Laurie. Tell me about her experience in the middle of that 40 minutes. What is happening in Laurie's body? And where? Where is her gaze...?

Laurie McGinley:

Okay, lizard brain fully engaged! No evolved thought at all. Like, can't see the larger picture. I find that one of the only ways to get through that is to just help the five year old. Here's the task we're doing. Okay, now get the pants on. Okay, there's the toothbrush. And so I spend 40 minutes like I'm holding my shoulders up like I shouldn't do it my lathe just like oh, let's get through this.

Kate Purmal:

Yeah, okay. I totally understand. Alright, so now let's do this. First of all, if you put wood turning Laurie in charge without any ounce of teakettle Laurie, like literally you became two people and you separated yourself... So the only thing that was present was wood turning Laurie's bag of tricks. She had none of teakettle Laurie's bag of tricks. If you put her in charge to get the bundling done the toothbrush the kid out the door, what would go wrong?

Laurie McGinley:

Probably my daughter would get to school late. Which is irrelevant, because it's a preschool where they like play in the woods all day long. Probably I would start my workday a little bit later, which is irrelevant, because I program a large buffer in at the beginning of every day. And the approach to that would be when I actually did get back home to start my workday, I would be calm and centered.

Kate Purmal:

Okay, so the worst thing that can happen with that Laurie in charge is what?

Laurie McGinley:

I mean, there's zero impact on this being a bad thing. Like, maybe teeth don't get brushed maybe. And like daughter shows up school late, which is irrelevant. Okay.

Kate Purmal:

Okay, let me just turn up the heat a little. What if Laurie has a meeting? There's some time constraint. And you put the would turning Laurie in charge.

Laurie McGinley:

So if there was a time constraint, and I had to

be back here at 8:

15 and would turning Laurie was in charge, probably just some steps would get skipped.

Kate Purmal:

So what if she got to the five minute mark, prior to having to leave in order to be back in time and nothing happened?

Laurie McGinley:

She would just grab the snowsuit, grab the kid, and instead of walking, turn the car on and drive. Drop off. Okay, you didn't get your snow suit on today, but now you're at school.

Kate Purmal:

So breathe that in. Just breathe. Now, I also want to really acknowledge teakettle Laurie, because she's played a very important role in your life for a very long time. And obviously she's had a very positive impact on your life because she's pretty powerful and present.

Laurie McGinley:

Yeah, she stands at attention we too easily. Like she's the the one who helped all of my academic achievements and career achievements and she was really good at chasing trophies.

Kate Purmal:

She's got a really big track record though of success. Like if you want to open the success closet, between wood turning Laurie and teakettle Laurie, teakettle Laurie... the awards are falling out of the closet, right?

Laurie McGinley:

Wood turning Laurie has a closet full of sawdust.

Kate Purmal:

I heard the term"internalized capitalism" the other day and it reminds me of this work, this embedded, inherent anxiety-invoking ethic or ethos, by which we judge and value, and what drives us. So, we're talking about the motivation behind internalized capitalism is this Protestant work ethic, right, this have to produce not sawdust, but awards. So, you know, this is again, what has brought you where you are, has created this opportunity for you to be able to go out on your own and be able to start a new business and, you know, all of the things that you're doing so this has been very important.

Laurie McGinley:

You know, tea kettle Laurie is really good at getting all of the stuff to her accountant on time to get her taxes filed on time. And I don't want to lose that when it's time, you know? But tea kettle Laurie as the 7:30am parent is not really in her zone.

Kate Purmal:

She can't be because tea kettle Laurie controls time and process and outcome.

Laurie McGinley:

And is really good at preconceiving a form and manifesting.

Kate Purmal:

Which is completely incompatible with the parenting.

Laurie McGinley:

So, this happened on the bandsaw this morning. I was cutting through the six inch thick piece of very wet wood and it was sticking in the band, so I was having a problem. I was being really careful and I was reminding myself that this is the tool that butchers use to butcher hogs and hit something soft, right in the middle of the cut. And I was safe, like nothing bad happened, but I went, "oh, change of plan! I drew a pencil line on this, but that's not how this cut's gonna go."

Kate Purmal:

So I think you've gathered a lot of metaphorical information about how wood turning Laurie can be subbed in for teak kettle Laurie.

Laurie McGinley:

I have an image of a football game, Kate. Like, you know, you're coming out of the game and you like high five your buddy. Go sit on the bench for a while and get some water.

Kate Purmal:

Yeah, do a handoff. Yeah, sub sub. So when tea kettle Laurie starts to feel the temperature go up, she calls for a sub. I played soccer for years. After you're beat and you can't run anymore, you're like"SUB!" Right?

Laurie McGinley:

I always I played basketball. And I always said "Coach! I'm tired!"

Kate Purmal:

So let's imagine going forward, let's pick a difficult thing in the near term going forward, not like I have two hours to get the snow suit on thing. But a difficult scenario that's likely to come up. So give us the scenario.

Laurie McGinley:

Um, we are taking the kids on an airplane for the first time in a couple of weeks. And there's a lot about travel that you just have to wait for. Like it doesn't matter how you feel about when you board, you're going to board when they tell you to board, and you're going to deplane when they tell you to deplane. And I know that there's going to be multiple instances on this journey with flying there and coming back. That are going to be difficult parenting moments because neither kid has flown. I mean, we found a YouTube video, but they don't know what it's actually like. And my wife and I have flown a lot, but never parented while flying.

Kate Purmal:

Okay, so let's pick a moment that's a likely scenario that's gonna come up in which you might call coach.

Laurie McGinley:

Deplaning after a three hour flight.

Kate Purmal:

Okay, great. Perfect. Okay, so tell me with teakettle Laurie in place how does that go down?

Laurie McGinley:

Oh, it's not pretty. There's a lot of boundary establishing and exerting control and you will wait. And you will not move until I say you move. Like tea kettle Laurie becomes like five star general Laurie.

Kate Purmal:

Ah, okay. So... because this might not be pretty either, what if we call in wood turning Laurie just prior to exiting the plane? Tell us about that. How does that go down? Just take us like through step by step the touchdown.

Laurie McGinley:

So you know, we're descending, the kid is entertained because she has a window seat and we're watching the landing and all that's very exciting. And then the dreaded taxi starts. And everybody does their like twitchy things... I don't know if you ever noticed, everybody undoes their seatbelt and can't go anywhere. I don't know why that happens on airplanes. But in that moment, I would imagine that's when teakettle Laurie's just like make eye contact with the coach and be like, "coach!"

Kate Purmal:

So what happened to Laurie in that moment? It sounds like just that act of people twitching with their seat belts and not being able to go anywhere makes her go from zero to a hundred.

Laurie McGinley:

It makes her elevated! You know, the kids' needs aside, teakettle Laurie joins in all of the totally misguided frenetic energy because we can't move after we undo our seatbelts and I don't like that moment either.

Kate Purmal:

Yeah, okay. And then what happens?

Laurie McGinley:

Is this where I get to actually ask woodturning Laurie to come in?

Kate Purmal:

We're gonna we're gonna slow this down with teakettle Laurie a bit.

Laurie McGinley:

Oh no. Okay.

Kate Purmal:

Just a little longer.

Laurie McGinley:

Um, I envision this going very poorly.

Kate Purmal:

Okay. Good enough. No need to go into detail. Okay. So teakettle Laurie is trying to do what? What's teakettle Laurie's intention in that moment?

Laurie McGinley:

Teakettle Laurie's intention is to not get duct taped to a seat by the flight attendants for an unruly kid on the plane, to not have the kids scream bloody murder, maybe to have the kid have some level of delight in their first flight. And also manage what at that point is going to be pretty uncontrollable squirrel energy.

Kate Purmal:

Okay, that all sounds really positive though.

Laurie McGinley:

Yeah, the intention is definitely positive.

Kate Purmal:

So this is the real question, then. That's a perfect moment. If we put in woodturning Laurie what happens to those intentions?

Laurie McGinley:

I think would turning Laurie is connected with intentions but not tied to them. Like we might be a little bit more choosy about intentions.

Kate Purmal:

So maybe wood turning Laurie's not really that worried about being duct taped to the seat.

Laurie McGinley:

Well I was just gonna say... nobody's going to duct tape a five year old seat,that's ridiculous. Or her mom for being out of control.

Kate Purmal:

And if she's out of control, what's the feeling that teakettle Laurie is trying to avoid? The feeling, the emotion?

Laurie McGinley:

The only emotion teakettle Laurie is trying to avoid is the five year old screaming.

Kate Purmal:

And what emotion does that create in teakettle Laurie?

Laurie McGinley:

That makes tea kettle Laurie, like the steam and the whistle, engage fully and like it's a huge ruckus and it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing.

Kate Purmal:

So it's embarrassment. Teak kettle Laurie is trying to avoid embarrassment.

Laurie McGinley:

Yeah, for sure. But wood turning Laurie would acknowledge that this is just more vacation. Wood turning Laurie would acknowledge that this is a part of being able to enjoy takeoff and landing, it's a part of going to a place where you can wear a swimsuit in January because that doesn't happen where we live.

Kate Purmal:

So now let's let's go back up. The wheels go down, but you're still coming down. Let's put wood turning Laurie in charge. And let's talk about how that goes down.

Laurie McGinley:

I think wood turning Laurie would fully engage in the joy of landing. Because I actually really love that moment. I think it's really fun.

Kate Purmal:

Oh, so she'd be present with the landing.

Laurie McGinley:

Oh yeah. She would play with the kid during landing because it's good.

Kate Purmal:

Versus the teakettle Laurie who's already sequencing everything that needs to get done and worrying about the screaming.

Laurie McGinley:

You know, teakettle Laurie in that moment, Kate, when the wheels have just gone down but we haven't touched down yet... She's already standing at the rental car claim.

Kate Purmal:

Yeah, she's gonna miss the whole thing! Okay, so wood turning Laurie is present.

Laurie McGinley:

Wood turning Laurie enjoys the feeling of landing. And knowing that deplaning is boring she engages in something fun and distracting to the kid.

Kate Purmal:

She creatively devises a game.

Drew Tweedy:

She improvs deplaning!

Laurie McGinley:

She engages all the rules of improv.

Drew Tweedy:

She's like ready to go! Yes and we can deplane, in the most fun way.

Laurie McGinley:

Yes and we will wait 19 more minutes.

Drew Tweedy:

The best 90 minutes of this vacation, no less.

Kate Purmal:

So, I mean, as you're playing this out in your mind, does it seem feasible?

Laurie McGinley:

Yeah, totally. I mean, why wouldn't we play during deplaning? Yeah.

Kate Purmal:

So, what does woodturning Laurie believe to be true, that teakettle Laurie does not believe?

Laurie McGinley:

I'm going to give a woodturning analogy and then I'll go back to your question. When I get a four hour chunk of time in the shop, which is about how long this flight will take I never really know what I'm going to work on. I just go down there and I look around and I'm like, what seems fun. And sometimes I end up just sitting near the woodstove. Not woodworking. But it's all shop time. And there's value in every single activity, even sweeping the floor. Just for shop time. And so when what turning Laurie is driving for deplanning, it's just more adventure.

Kate Purmal:

In fact, she's already before she's even left, she's crafted all these possibilities of shop time in the plane, right? She's got a bag full of tricks.

Laurie McGinley:

Yes, she actually literally has a bag full of tricks. Yeah. And, you know, on the plane, you know, it's kind of limited what you can bring, but it's probably going to be coloring books and fidgets. And the way our seating arrangements are, is my wife is going to have a bag in the row behind me or in front of me. Probably trade bags, you know, and engage in whatever needs to be engaged in or not engaged in any moment of that flight.

Kate Purmal:

But you'll have a bag of tricks that is sufficient that you will not need to utilize all the tricks before you land and deplane probably.

Laurie McGinley:

Yeah. And the part of teakettle Laurie that's really good at that is like, I will hold things back until we deplane.

Kate Purmal:

Oh, so teakettle Laurie does have a role.

Laurie McGinley:

She is really good at planning and delaying gratitude. Okay. And so if you have a finite amount of things that you can carry onto an airplane, and they have to last for four hours and still be fun and novel, like she's really good at holding them in the bottom of the bag, so nobody sees.

Kate Purmal:

Okay, so are the two of them going to be playing together?

Laurie McGinley:

Yeah, probably it's a joint effort. But if I could choose which I can because it's my life. I think I would do you know, like 6- to 10% teakettle Laurie, and the rest wood turning Laurie.

Kate Purmal:

Okay. Is there anything that goes wrong when you make that choice?

Laurie McGinley:

I don't think there's anything that can go wrong in that scenario, but maybe we're the last people off the plane. Who cares?

Kate Purmal:

What does your wife think about that Laurie?

Laurie McGinley:

I think that she enjoys that Laurie. Because every time I come into the house in that state, I generally get some comments of like, oh... there you are.

Kate Purmal:

Ah, she's tuned in to that Laurie.

Laurie McGinley:

Very. That's the Laurie she met in our 20s. You know, well, and that's that's the pre-child pre-serious career Laurie.

Kate Purmal:

It's also the Laurie that the kids... it's an energetic presence. It's how you show up energetically.

Laurie McGinley:

There are moments with the kids where there's another Laurie... there's Captain Wildchild Laurie.

Kate Purmal:

Oh, she's a little related to wood turning Laurie.

Laurie McGinley:

She's super related to woodturning Laurie, but it's like, let's just be as chaotic as possible for joy.

Kate Purmal:

So what does woodturning Laurie believe to be true that teakettle Laurie doesn't? With regard to the plane.

Laurie McGinley:

Specifically with regard to the plane, woodturning Laurie knows that it's just more Adventure Time. And that this idea of expecting an outcome has never worked, and will never work. And it just causes headaches, and it's not worth it.

Kate Purmal:

She is not already at the rental car place, she's like yea, we'll get there when we get there.

Laurie McGinley:

Yeah, we're probably going to go find a bathroom and a snack anyway. So who cares? I mean, the car will be there whenever we get there.

Kate Purmal:

Yeah, yeah. And what does wood turning Laurie give herself permission for that tea kettle Laurie would never?

Laurie McGinley:

Wood turning Lauriegives herself permission to not enjoy deplaning. And that's fine.

Kate Purmal:

All right. So when you go upstairs today, and you embark upon the bundling, who do you bring in with you?

Laurie McGinley:

That better be wood turning Laurie! don't know how many more teakettle Laurie bundling scenarios I can handle. Y

Kate Purmal:

Maybe 6- to 10%?

Laurie McGinley:

And you know, on a vacation day on winter break, it really doesn't matter if we even make it to the sledding hill. Yeah, it's just something to do to find joy in the afternoon.

Kate Purmal:

Yeah. Okay, so she's gonna go up and how is what is going to be different? When you go up as wood turning Laurie in the first 15 minutes of being there, upstairs, what is going to be different?

Laurie McGinley:

It seems most important on, you know, an afternoon where we have the next six hours to do whatever our hearts desire. There are no constraints on today at all. To just walk upstairs and check in with the kids. Like, what does joy look like this afternoon? It's that same moment when I walk into the shop at the beginning of a four hour chunk of time. What catches my eye today? What catches your eye? Yeah, yeah.

Kate Purmal:

So I'd just like to say for our listeners, you know, what we've done here today is a really powerful thing that you can do easily within your own life, which is we took a metaphorical idea that works in one place, which is this wood turning Laurie. And we applied it to a place that's challenging. So, you know, what we've done here is we've had Laurie reflect on wood turning Laurie and what it's like to be wood turning Laurie, and how she approaches things. And then she's already making those analogies and connections in her mind, because that's what minds do. And then we had her bring that self to this other situation, where somebody else was usually in charge, and just see how that would go. It's an experiment, you get to test drive, right, you haven't committed to anything. And by the way, if it goes terribly awry, you can always call in, you know, "Coach!", to get teakettle Laurie back in it, she's still around, by the way, she ain't going anywhere. She's like, "Oh, yeah, we're gonna see." She's got her arms crossed, looking around. Maybe she'll make up her mind at some point. But it's okay. But that's what we've done here. And there's two other very important pieces. One is to appreciate the tea kettle Laurie in your scenario, because that part of you is a critical part to have gotten where you've gotten. So that's critically important as well. Then the other thing is just to simply reflect on how you showing up as the different Laurie would positively or negatively impact the people around you. Because that's also relevant, we make decisions based on safety, which is what teakettle Laurie is all about. "I know how to make you safe and successful, and I'm really good at that." And then lastly about our environment, and how whatever we do will impact others around us.

Laurie McGinley:

You know, Kate, as you were going through that, I reminded myself at the beginning of this call, I invited you to Minnesota to come into my woodshop. And I said I would love for more people to come into the woodshop with me, because when you let yourself get into it, and I've seen this happen with the people have come in, it's really beautiful. And you let down. And frankly, I'm good at modeling that. I'm showing you how to be safe with these crazy tools. And it just occurred to me that that's the version of me that I want my kids to remember. Definitely, that I want them to know that that exists.

Kate Purmal:

You're modeling creativity and improv.

Drew Tweedy:

And courage!

Laurie McGinley:

And accepting what comes.

Kate Purmal:

Yes, and allowing people around you to be who they are and things around you to be what they are, not trying to change or manipulate them or try to pretend they're different and resist that.

Laurie McGinley:

Yeah, yeah. And appreciating outcomes that you never could have seen coming.

Kate Purmal:

That's right. Well, we're gonna check in with you in a few weeks. See how the deplaning went. And see what happens when we'll see how long teakettle Laurie allowed wood turning Laurie to be in charge. She might jump in, I'm just tellin' ya.

Laurie McGinley:

She might be that kid on the bench that's like "Coach. Put me back in."

Drew Tweedy:

She's like 6- to 10% seems a little sparse!

Laurie McGinley:

I don't think that's really gonna bring my stats down coach.

Kate Purmal:

Exactly. She's so happy. Oh, thank you so much, Laurie, this was really actually beautiful, and metaphorically, I just love the vision and the image how I'm imagining your woodshop to be, and the fact that we got to experience it over audio today is really beautiful. So thank you so much.

Laurie McGinley:

Thank you, Kate. Thank you for this. I'll repeat what I said at the beginning. Every time I talk to you I walk away changed. I really appreciate the insight and energy you bring to this. So delightful.

Kate Purmal:

Thank you. It's my honor.

Drew Tweedy:

Laurie, you said something, I think really inspiring and really profound earlier. And I want to leave off on this note for our listeners. Earlier you said, "when you allow yourself to just go through the process and be present, the most delightful things emerge." And I think that that is the perfect way to encapsulate this conversation. So thank you for giving us the opportunity to talk to you today and all of our listeners the opportunity to really learn from your experience.

Laurie McGinley:

Thank you Drew. That was a beautiful highlight. I appreciate that you brought it forward. And thanks for having me today. This was fun.

Kate Purmal:

Our pleasure. All right, safe travels.